Обсуждение:Ян Кёнджон (KQvr';yuny&Xu T~u;'ku)

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Городская легенда

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Материал надо перепроверять, статью — переписывать. В корейском разделе написано, что это вымышленный персонаж и городская легенда. Sealle 14:29, 28 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]

On July 2, 1937... Japanese troops stationed in Korea (called the Korean Troop) recommended setting up "a system requiring Korean men to voluntary enlist for military service" in response to an inquiry from the Ministry of the Army (An Opinion on Korean Enlistment, the Korean Troop's Headquarters secret documents). Accordingly, the Japanese military, assuming conscription would be introduced in the decades to follow, set up an enlistment system for Koreans on April 3, 1938 (The Army Ordinance for Special Enlistment System)

— [1]
--Fastboy 15:20, 29 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]
Тогда это "пошел добровольцем в", а не "был призван", разве не так? Elmor 16:19, 29 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]
Не совсем: «In 1938, at the age of eighteen, Yang had been forcibly conscripted by the Japanese into their Kwantung Army in Manchuria.» forcibly conscripted - никак не добровольно...--Fastboy 17:06, 29 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]
Про призыв военнопленного в РККА действительно есть сомнения. Вот например: «Весьма сомнительно. "Не верю!" Не взяли бы, по крайней мере в 1939-40 г., японских военнослужащих сразу же в Советскую Армию.» Однако на дворе был 1942 год... кто знает.--Fastboy 15:25, 29 октября 2012 (UTC}
Внизу в статье я привёл ссылки на корейский документальный фильм, снятый SBS. Говорят, что «According to a preview of this documentary, a group of Korean reporters took a long route(20,000 km :o ) from Japan through Mongolia, Russia, Germany and France, to USA to trace him. And it is said that the reporters found the list of more than 500 Koreans(who were captured in the battle of Nomonhan) that were captured in the western Europe by Americans and Brits. »[2]. Если кто-то со знанием родного корейского взялся бы пересмотреть этот фильм и подтвердить/опровергнуть эту информацию, было бы просто замечательно!--Fastboy 15:31, 29 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]
Так там ссылка не на фильм, а на сайт компании. Если Вам удастся найти фильм, я проверю информацию. Elmor 16:19, 29 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]
Часть 1, часть 2--Fastboy 16:51, 29 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]
Ещё одна ссылка на фильм SBS.--Fastboy 17:09, 30 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]
Полное видео http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtwZXpXcCsg Commie 15:28, 21 января 2013 (UTC)[ответить]

Бивор

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Корейская статья

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If there is a Korea WikiProject on RU, I would ask for help. Also look for the Korea WikiProject on EN and on the Embassy on the Korean Wikipedia for help with sources. Also flag this article on the Korean Wikipedia and explain all of the problems. WhisperToMe 04:48, 30 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]

The embassy is at ko:위키백과:대사관 WhisperToMe 16:08, 30 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]
Done.--Fastboy 16:28, 30 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]

Ещё одно исследование

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http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=vixlee&logNo=70127893440 --Fastboy 17:21, 30 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]

Фильм SBS

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В 2005 году корейская телекомпания SBS провела журналистское расследование с целью установить личность человека, изображённого на фото:

--Fastboy 15:07, 31 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]

Краткое содержание фильма:

It seems like it traces the journey of the Korean soldiers from Japan (captured there by Russians), to Russia (captured there by Germans), to Germany, and then to France (illustrated by a map segment at 15:31), and then to the United States - It seems to discuss the American invasion of France that the Koreans experienced. It then documents the trail to find out who the Koreans were and where they went.

  • 00:23: A clipping says "At the beach called Utah on the day of the invasion, Lt. Robert Brewer of the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division, U.S. Army, captured four Asians in Wehrmacht uniforms. No one could speak their language; eventually it was learned that they were Koreans."
  • 02:24: Another clipping says "captured by the Wehrmacht in December 1941 outside Moscow" - There is a Korean translation present
  • 03:47: A Russian man is interviewed - the dialog is in Russian, with Korean subtitles
  • 04:50: Visiting de:Gedenkstätte Ehrenhain Zeithain in en:Zeithain, Saxony (additional notes by Kolja)
  • 06:06: A German man is interviewed - the dialog is in German, with Korean subtitles
Thema: Die schlechte Ernährung der Gefangenen. (Befehle des sowjetischen Oberkomandos.)
  • 08:15: "We have the database and where we got these pictures, others from. And I checked if it Korean or something, I mean, we could check some names, family names, but like Park, Kim, something" (with Korean subtitles)
  • 08:52: As people pore over German records, they look at the profile of a Korean captive. The dialog: "He, he died at Sattam(?) He's buried at one of those cemeteries. Park, Park Yuri, Yuri Park. Officer? Officer?" (No Korean subtitles) - German text is visible
He died here at en:Zeithain
  • 09:09: Dialog: "And family name is Tsoy (Joy?) Joy. Joy. And he was born on the 12th of May in 1924, in Korea, in Korea, and he escaped .. escaped and he wasn't found, and he escaped on the 8th of July 1943" (Korean subtitles)
Bont ZOJ, b. 12 May 1924 at "Tsont (Koree gebiet)" [i.e. Koreanisches Gebiet = Korean territory], Nationality: Korean, "geflüchtet und nicht wiederergriffen" (successful escape): 8 July 1943. "Zu benachrichtigende Person in der Heimat" (relatives): Dorf Sont, Kreis Chasan, Gau Wladiwostok. (That means Bont Zoj was born in the region Владивосток.)
  • 10:45: Another interview in German (about plans to use prisoners instead of killing them)
  • 11:38: Clipping says "forced into the German[...]army"
  • 11:43: Another interview in German
"Ein zweischneidiges Schwert für die Kriegsgefangenen", working for the German army was good and bad for the prisoners at the same time.
  • 12:40: Another interview in German
About foreigners in the German army: historian
  • 13:23: Another interview in German
About foreigners in the German army: they fought like regular soldiers but kept separately.
  • 14:29: German television program from the era. With English subtitles, but overlaid with Korean ones. The English subtitles are: "These units of the division, which are equipped with the most modern weapons, march past General Vlaser(?) and [...] volunteer units." (one could see which group/agency subbed the video into English)
  • 14:57: Another interview in German
  • 15:27: Clipping says "sent to France"
  • 16:13: Another interview in German
  • 17:40: Interview in French
  • 21:13: Interview in French
  • 22:17: Visits to the Freiburg Bundesarchiv Military Archive, with a Korean researcher (I think)
  • 22:43: Document identified as RD 26-709/8 is opened - Initial identification of possible Korean names in the archives will commence
  • 22:55: Name "Jung" (would be 정 in Korean, according to the program) is identified in the records
  • 23:00: Name "Sang" (장, which would be Jang, Chang, or Zang in English - it was pronounced "Zang" in German) is identified
  • 23:02: Name "Gang" (강)
  • 23:06: Name "Hahn" (한)
  • 23:06: Korean researcher seems to be discussing the spelling difference involving "Hahn" and "Han"
  • 23:18: Conversation between a German and Koreans, conducted in German, about the name, with some Korean subtitles
    • 23:42: "Jung=용" (pronounced "Young", so apparently it would be 용)
    • 23:43: "Sang=?" (can't capture it, seems to be 쟘?)
    • 23:48: "Gang=강"
  • 24:29: A German interview
Über Erkennungsmarken (about dog tags); Listen der Ostbattalione = de:Osttruppen sind nach 1945 an die Sowjetunion gegangen; offenbar keine Kopien in Deutschland.
  • 26:25: A French interview
  • 26:52: Another French interview
  • 27:53: English interview: "He was probably by 44, England was full, they weren't shipping them to England any longer. They would most likely have come to the United States. (Interviewer inquiry is dubbed in Korean) I would, uhmm, within two weeks. Yes."
  • 28:52: English interview: "They, uh, consulted the, uh, Geneva Convention of 1929, the rules of war so to speak. And it says that prisoners should be taken to the same climate where they were captured. And Washington decided that the same climate in Tunisia and North Africa where the men were captured was Texas. And so they were brought to Texas because of the climate."
  • 30:48: Korean records, apparently
  • 31:20: US Gov letter quoted: "JAP IN NAZI UNIFORM CAPTURED" (Korean)
  • 31:26: More of the US Gov letter viewed
  • 31:36: German interview
  • 31:41: French interview
  • 31:49: English interview: "The United States didn't necessarily make a distinction between Korea and Japan because Korea was considered to be within the Japanese empire."
  • 32:02: US Gov Record #2 visible
    • 32:07: Date and place translated into Korean
    • 32:14: "captured Japanese"
  • 33:25: Clipping at 00:23 is referenced again, with Korean text
  • 34:15: Another USGov letter
    34:17: "MONGOLIANS AMONG FIRST NORMANDY PRISONERS TO REACH U.S." (Korean subtitled)
  • 34:25: Looking through military records
  • 35:05: Korean researchers look through records of individuals by nationality
  • 36:36: Look through book called "DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY OFFICE OF THE ADJUTANT GENERAL LIST OF JAPANESE PRISONER OF WAR RECORDS TRANSFERRED TO THE JAPANESE GOVERNMENT Prepared by: Kansas City Records Center, TAGO 17 December, 1954 Volume 1 of 6"
  • 37:05 English interview: "All the Japanese were kept at McCoy and the Koreans with them, until mid-, uhm, early 45, because we, usually, you know we kind of... counted them all as one although, once in camp, uh Colonel Rogers quickly learned to understand that there was a difference between Koreand and Japanese and, and uh willingly cooperated with that difference, but the national public and the national government in general just linked them all together."
  • 38:01: English interview: "The uhm, this particular again was Koreans, if we go on the other side, by the road over there, this is where the Japanese were kept."
  • 38:20: English interview: "Uhm, they wanted just... things to end so they could go back and fight the Japanese, um, that's what their feelings were because they were pressed to fight for the Japanese, and again, they were pretty much taken over by the Japanese and forced to fight for them."
  • 38:36: Another USGov document:
    • 38:40: "the Korean prisoners when repatriated will probably go directly to Korea rather than to Japan."
  • 39:20: English interview: "The actual language of the treaty does not specifically say that force is required, but that was the general understanding on both sides, that the agreement would have no alternative other than the forced return of the, uh, POWs and the civilians, whether they wanted to go or not."
  • 40:07: View of a document of transfers
  • 41:11: English interview: "The main reason, in my opinion, that the United States and Britain returned Soviet citizens against their will was out of fear for the safety of about 75 thousand British and American POWs who were being liberated in Eastern Europe."
  • 43:13: English interview: "I don't think that much concern for one German soldier who may have killed American soldiers, which is the way we looked at it. He's wearing a German uniform. He may have killed American soldiers. There are American, there's American mothers in the, in the United States who are weeping for their dead sons because this man may have killed them. And I don't think anybody was concerned about, uh, human rights, and, whether or not this man should go, uh, back to uh... Pusan."
  • 43:50: English broadcast speech starts off "Nearly two million Soviet Prisoners of War[...]"
  • 44:09: German interview
Es gibt zu jedem Kriegsgefangenen eine Akte beim NKWD = de:Innenministerium der UdSSR; die Menschen wurde für den Rest ihres Leben diskriminiert.
  • 45:36: (from book clipping) "they almost certainly would have been conscripted again, either into the South or North Korean army. It is possible that in 1950 they ended up fighting once again, either against the U.S. Army, or with it, depending on what part of Korea they came from." (Korean subtitles)

The clippings are from a book page seen at 0:23, 2:24, 11:38, 15:27, and 45:36: with different portions visible (entire passage is not translated into Korean - only pieces are). The pages are from: Ambrose, Stephen E. D-Day June 6, 1944: The Climactic Battle of World War II. It is page 34 (chapter "The Defenders") of the edition en:Simon and Schuster, June 6, 1994, ISBN 0671673343, 9780671673345 at Google Books.

"At the beach called Utah on the day of the invasion, Lt. Robert Brewer of the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division, U.S. Army, captured four Asians in Wehrmacht uniforms. No one could speak their language; eventually it was learned that they were Koreans. How on earth did the Koreans end up fighting for Hitler to defend France against Americans? It seems they had been conscripted into the Japanese army in 1938-Korea was then a Japanese colony-captured by the Red Army in the border battles with Japan in 1939, forced into the Red Army, captured by the Wehrmacht in December 1941 outside Moscow, forced into the German army and sent to France.7 (What happened to them, Lieutenant Brewer never found out, but presumably they were sent to Korea. If so, they almost certainly would have been conscripted again, either into the South or North Korean army. It is possible that in 1950 they ended up fighting once again, either against the U.S. Army, or with it, depending on what part of Korea they came from. Such are the vagaries of politics in the twentieth century.)" - The endnote identifying Citation#7 is in p. 588 "Robert Brewer interview, EC"

Full letter (at 31:20 and 31:326):

"2391
From Public Relations Division
U.S. Coast Guard
Washington, D.C.
Official Coast Guard Photo
JAP IN NAZI UNIFORM CAPTURED
Dismay and lineliness is written on the face of this young Jap, wearing a Nazi uniform and snapped by a Coast Guard combat photographer in a roundup of German prisoners on the beaches of France. The Jap is giving his name and number to an American Army captain.
    • rbp**"

Relevant portion of US government document #2:

SOURCE: NRP
WORLD WAR, 1939-1945 - PRISONERS OF WAR, GERMAN
FILM: ARCH DN & APC MP 10411 ea Silent
INVASION (Cont'd)
Carentan, St-Mere-Eglise, France
June 1944 (Cont'd)
VS at field hospital; wounded are carried from vehicles to hospital tents, wounded on field are given first aid, nurses roll bandages and tend wounded. MSs, CUs, captured Japanese dressed in German uniforms.[...]"

US Government letter #3 at (34:15)

2428
FROM: PUBLIC RELATIONS DIVISION U.S. COAST GUARD WASHINGTON, D.C.
OFFICIAL COAST GUARD PHOTO
MONGOLIANS AMONG FIRST NORMANDY PRISONERS TO REACH U.S.
THEY LOOK LIKE JAPS, BUT THEY ARE MONGOLIANS CAPTURED WITH THE NAZI IN NORMANDY. LOOKING NOT TOO HAPPY ABOUT THE WHOLE AFFAIR, THIS GROUP IS SHOWN ABOUT A COAST GUARD-MANNED TROOP TRANSPORT EN ROUTE TO INTERNMENT IN THE UNITED STATES. A COAST [GUARD] CHIEF PETTY OFFICER (LEFT)[...]"

US Government document #4 (38:36):

"Colonel Horace I Rogers
Commanding Officer
Prisoner of War Camp
Camp McCoy, Wisconsin
Dear Colonel Rogers:
Following our telephone conversation of this morning I formally discussed with G-1 the Korean suggestion for a special arm patch. They do not look upon it with favor and intimated that if it were officially presented to them they would turn it down. I assume, although I have no information on the subject, that the Korean prisoners when repatriated would probably go directly to Korea rather than Japan. In any event, I believe they will be separated from the Japanese so that there will be no possibility of their being mistaken for Japanese prisoners of war.
Sincerely yours,[...]"

WhisperToMe 04:47, 31 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]

Additional notes in italics. --Kolja21 22:47, 1 ноября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]

В сухом остатке

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По состоянию на 2012 год, из всех известных АИ, человека на фото идентифицирует явно как Яна Кёнджона только британский историк Энтони Бивор:

При этом он приводит отдельные факты биографии, которые, что интересно, очень сильно схожи с информацией на различных форумах. Наиболее полная (и похоже, что самая первая) информация о Яне Кёнджоне предоставлена участником форума axishistory Kim Sung 3.08.2005:

The name of the soldier in this photo is Kyoungjong Yang who was born in Shin Euijoo, Northwestern Korea on March 3, 1920. He was conscripted to the Kwantung army in 1938 and captured by the Soviets in Nomonhan and captured again by Germans in Ukraine in the summer of 1943, maybe in the battle of Kharkov, and captured finally by Americans in Utah beach, Normandy on June 6, 1944.

He was freed from a POW camp in Britain on May, 1945 and moved and settled in America in 1947. He lived near the Northwestern Univ. in Illinois until he died on April 7, 1992. He lived as an ordinary US citizen without telling his unbelievable life story even to his two sons and one daughter.

His story was revealed by an article of ‘Weekly Korea’ on Dec. 6th, 2002, which became a big topic in the Korean society here at the time.

His surprising story will be told in a new movie which is now being made in the United States. The title of this movie is ‘A POW in Normandy’ and will focus on the real story of a Korean POW(Kyoungjong Yang) and a US soldier who helps him. It is said that the budget for this movie will amount to more than 40 million dollars.

— A Korean POW in Normandy, a hero in a new movie 3.08.2005

Вот так и сразу. На скромный вопрос, «откуда дровишки»...

- I am confused because in the documentary [см. ниже про фильм SBS], they said that they could not find his name and they could not get any information on where he came from in Korea and what happened to him after his capture. But you said that his name is Mr. Yang and born in NW Korea in 1920. Also you said that his son and daughter lie in the US.
Why did the documentary not find this information?
And how did you find this information?

— by Genghis on 01 Mar 2006

... ответа не последовало. Но страницей ранее, Kim Sung извинился, посмотрев фильм SBS:

What I posted about the Korean POW at the start of this thread is based on information that was not confirmed. Even though I've seen just the first part of the documentary, it seems that the Korean POW's name is not Yang, Kyongjong. I'm sorry for having provided a rash information to you.

— by Kim Sung on 11 Dec 2005

Далее Kim Sung сообщил про новые корейские книги и фильм «Мой путь», выход которого затянулся на долгие 6 лет.

Остальные сообщения в форумах, блогах и прочем «самиздате» - видимо, более поздние репосты, например:

Другой АИ - американский историк Стивен Е. Амброз (Steven Ambrose), который в своей книге D-Day (1994) впервые опубликовал это фото, только упоминает о четырёх корейских военнопленных, взятых в плен в Нормандии, и предполагает, что они были пленены на Халхин-Голе, затем пленены вермахтом в СССР и затем оказались в Нормандии:

At the beach called Utah on the day of the invasion, Lt. Robert Brewer of the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division, U.S. Army, captured four Asians in Wehrmacht uniforms. No one could speak their language; eventually it was learned that they were Koreans. How on earth did the Koreans end up fighting for Hitler to defend France against Americans? It seems they had been conscripted into the Japanese army in 1938-Korea was then a Japanese colony-captured by the Red Army in the border battles with Japan in 1939, forced into the Red Army, captured by the Wehrmacht in December 1941 outside Moscow, forced into the German army and sent to France. (What happened to them, Lieutenant Brewer never found out, but presumably they were sent to Korea. If so, they almost certainly would have been conscripted again, either into the South or North Korean army. It is possible that in 1950 they ended up fighting once again, either against the U.S. Army, or with it, depending on what part of Korea they came from. Such are the vagaries of politics in the twentieth century.)"

— [4] Ambrose, Stephen (1994). D-Day June 6, 1944: The Climactic Battle of WWII. Simon & Schuster. ISBN 978-0-671-67334-5

Также выше упомянутое журналистское расследование корейской телекомпании SBS (Seoul Broadcasting System) в 2005 году не смогло идентифицировать личность человека на фото. Однако они выяснили некоторые другие детали:

  • на фото - кореец;
  • корейцы содержались в немецких концлагерях (в частности, на 09:15 минуте приведено дело корейца Бонт Цой (Bont Zoj), родившегося 12.05.1924 в Tsont в Корее. 8 июля 1943 года он успешно сбежал из концлагеря);
  • корейцы воевали в вермахте (в составе восточных батальонов);
  • в 1944 году северное побережье Франции (участок Атлантического вала) прикрывали 709-я, 352-я, 716-я и 711-я пехотные дивизии вермахта (16:50 и 21:58 минута), в составе которых, в частности, были 649-й и 561-й восточные батальоны, 461-й и 795-й грузинские батальоны.
  • согласно, немецким архивным документам (с 22:44 минуты - дело RH-26-709/ 8 Бундесархива во Фрайбурге) в них действительно служили солдаты с корейскими фамилиями: рядовой Янг (Jung) 17-го пулемётного батальона, ефрейтор Занг (Sang), сержант Ганг (Gang), Хан (Hahn).
  • военнопленные из восточных батальонов направлялись, в том числе, в лагеря в США;
  • оригинальная подпись к фотографии в NARA гласит: «Jap in nazi uniform captured» / Official coast guard photo (31:18 минута); в подписи к фото указано, что «японец называет своё имя и фамилию американскому офицеру», но не указано, какие именно;
  • в числе военнопленных в США оказались монголы (34:15), индийцы, болгары, иранцы, индонезийцы, иракцы, ирландцы, филиппинцы...
  • в списке военнопленных японских подданных (36:45) встречается много фамилий Kim и Lee. В частности, есть Kim Chan Sik - что интересно, почти так же зовут главного героя фильма «Мой путь» (Kim Jun-shik);
  • если бы кореец оказался советским гражданином, то его бы принудительно репатриировали в СССР в 1945 году; некоторые совершали самоубийство (на 42:20 минуте - предсмертная записка «Нас хотят отправить в ненавистную для нас страну, против которой...»)

Ещё есть вторая часть этого фильма. --Fastboy 19:49, 1 ноября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]

Обсуждение (В сухом остатке)

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  • По итогам этого расследования можно уже писать отдельную статью, если не монографию (не шучу). Sealle 20:33, 31 октября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]
    Чтобы потом сослаться на неё из Википедии как на АИ? :) Да пусть будет ОРИССом на этой странице обсуждения, тем более ещё с фильмом не всё ясно: во-первых, он в двух частях (надо искать вторую), а во-вторых - он на корейском (надо искать переводчика).--Fastboy 18:40, 1 ноября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]
On en:Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Questions_over_Korean_soldier_in_WWII_who_fought_on_Germany.27s_side the editors want to know what you are looking for WhisperToMe 14:25, 3 ноября 2012 (UTC)[ответить]

"По данным Бивора"

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Есть множество других подтвеждений, Бивор не был первым. Соответсвенно поправила преамбулу.Axlesaery (обс.) 11:09, 1 января 2020 (UTC)[ответить]

  • Бивор наиболее авторитетный АИ, в отличие от тех якобы многочисленных, о которых вы так бездоказательно говорите, к тому-же, существование данной личности, даже после многочисленных исследований, продолжает быть под большим вопросом, так что ваша правка неуместна и отклонена. — Wiky Miky (обс.) 09:45, 2 января 2020 (UTC)[ответить]
Прошу сообщить на чем основано ваше мнение об особой авторитетности Бивора? Как Вы верно отметили, личность Ян Кёнджона полулегендарна. О его существовании пишут популярные новостные издания (курсив мой):

Although both popular news outlets and several historians have regarded this as a fact, a Korean documentary said there was no clear evidence of his existence.

В любом случае, ссылку на Бивора следует уточнить до страниц. Желательно также процитировать соответсвующее мнение Бивора с его подробной аттрибуцией (ВП:ПРОВ). Axlesaery (обс.) 11:09, 2 января 2020 (UTC)[ответить]
Источник — https://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Обсуждение:Ян_Кёнджон&oldid=104306561